Tuesday, 28 October 2008
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REALLY a Christian?
"I would say that most American Christians aren't even Christian." (source)
"If it was our responsibility to make sure that we got saved, then certainly we could lose our salvation. However, it's not, never was, and never will be, thanks be to God!" (source)
"I don't think it's a question of if we can lose it [salvation], but if we ever truly received it." (source)
"If someone is soundly saved in the first place they can not lose their salvation. The Holy Spirit will keep them." (source)
"Salvation is about BELIEVING. You can't "unbelieve" so how could you lose your salvation?" (source)
"Anyone who says "I'm saved" and then goes and does things that are clearly against scripture and are not repentant and harden their heart - were never saved in the first place." (source)
All of these quotes have something in common: the belief that there are "christians", and then there are CHRISTIANS. There are those who were "really" saved and remain so their entire lives, and there are those who only thought they were saved when in fact they were not. As with all beliefs, there can be found scripture which supports this viewpoint:
"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:22-23
I never knew you - it sounds pretty straight-forward. And yet it's not. I'm going to stick my own neck out here, and use myself as an illustration. I used to be a Christian. For 21 years I was a Christian (17 if you don't want to count the 4 years it took me to learn the English language well enough to be able to say the "sinner's prayer"). So was I "really" a Christian all my life?
No! A real Christian wouldn't be able to resist the hand of God. I must have been unbelieving, reasisting the pull of the Spirit, hardening my heart.
Except, I did believe. I had faith even after I left the church, even right up to the point where I realized there was no God. My faith was so strong, it took an entire paradigm shift for me to be able to finally lay it down. And isn't that what salvation is - justification by faith through grace?
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ... Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:1-2, 9-10
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus... For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:4-6, 8-9
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Romans 8:29-30
"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one." John 10:28-30
Assming there is a God, that Jesus was his son, and that the Bible is divinely inspired, these verses show I am unable not to be saved if God calls me. Did he then not call me? Did he turn a deaf ear to my pleas for salvation? Was he toying with me before such time as he hardened my heart (as he did with the king of Egypt in Moses' day)? Even more importantly, how could I not have known I was not saved, if in fact I was not, when I believed with all soul (so to speak) that I was? To answer this last question, we must first know what salvation looks like, and how it is identified.
"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.' ... For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.'" Romans 10:8-11, 13
"Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" James 2:17-19
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6
Here we go from "public confession of faith", to "faith-inspired works", to "perfect obedience" as evidence of salvation. But which is it? Is claiming salvation enough, or is a blameless lifestyle required? Or is it some sort of compromise between these 3 verses, some sort of Cerberus? No wonder believers have difficulty knowing who is "really" saved and who isn't. Only God himself could possibly sort this mess out!
"So it was, when they came, that he looked at Eliab and said, 'Surely the LORD’s anointed is before Him!'
But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not look at his appearance or at his physical stature, because I have refused him. For the LORD does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.'" 1 Samuel 16:6-7If even a prophet of the Lord cannot tell, what great arrogance is it for anyone else to claim to know who the "real" Christians are! The simple fact is, you don't know. You can't tell me how real or fake my salvation was. You can only make an educated guess, based on what dogma you have already accepted as fact. This brings me back to the main question, of whether or not someone who has left the faith was ever really a Christian to begin with.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6
The Scriptures themselves acknolwedge the existance of those who were legitimately in Christ, and have now departed. I affirm this, that I was as true a Christian as there ever was, and am now not. But after "partaking in the Holy Spirit", how could I have "snatched myself out of the Father's Hand"? Isn't that impossible? Jesus himself promised us as much!
I have much more to say on the subject that I don't have the time or space to include here today, so I'll draw this to a close. There are many irreconcilable differences between the authors of the New Testament texts on what Christianity is all about, what it looks like, and how permanent it is. My conclusion then is that "real" Christianity is meaningless. There is no difference between "real" Christians and people who only think they're Christians. There is no divinely inspired scripture. There is no salvation. There is no God.
Oh, and to all the Christians out there who are going to tell me the true reasons I left the faith, I've heard it all before.
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Comments (17)
Ever heard of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy?
@Axis_of_Doom - Are you kidding? That's my favorite! I use it at least 5 times before breakfast each day.
DAMNIT! I'm only halfway done reading but I have to go!
I'll be back!!!!
@SpiritedTangent - You'd better hurry, once the Revelife Inquisition read this, you'll never hear from me again!
Even more importantly, how could I not have known I was not saved, if in fact I was not, when I believed with all soul (so to speak) that I was?
II Thessalonians 2:10- 12 - And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they may believe a lie. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The question is whether or not you are one of those that God has judged and sent strong delusion to.
If even a prophet of the Lord cannot tell, what great arrogance is it
for anyone else to claim to know who the "real" Christians are! The
simple fact is, you don't know. You can't tell me how real or fake my
salvation was.
Imo, if you were truly saved, then you will come back to God at some point in your life. If you die while still not believing in God, I don't believe you were truly saved but are one of those that God has judged according to the verse above. God says that - "My Spirit shall not always strive with man." And Revelation 22:11 says - "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."
You definitely know the scriptures quite well, and what decision you arrive at for yourself is your freedom and privilege. I personally think a person can fall from grace. I know in my own life that when I fail to sow to the Spirit through prayer, study and meditation, the flesh creeps in and I see myself thinking and acting in very wrong ways. Therefore, I am convinced that when I am able to live a Christian life, it is not me at all but He that dwells in me. The branches must be attached to the vine or they die. My life comes from the vine, apart from Him, I die and am nothing. There is also a scripture that says God has those who are His in a seal, He knows who they are, we don't. We can know how we are with the Lord and that is it, we cannot read or judge anyone else right or wrong because we cannot see into the heart. You gave some wonderful scriptures to think on. I know my daughter went through a period of time where she did not believe in God. I left that up to her. After a few years, she returned to the faith, only stronger than ever before but she had to decide and choose all on her own. It is no good otherwise. People do not become Christians because of their parents, it is an individual decision. That is why I love America, each is free to choose. God would not have it any other way, He does not want robots, He wants to be chosen by people. I know some people do believe once saved, always saved for the very reasons you give above. I don't believe that but really wish I could because that is a much happier stance to take. The best to you in your search for the truth.
@musterion99 - "God shall send them strong delusion that they may believe a lie" That seems kind of crappy, if God would really pull one out of his fold and send into a delusion. This really illustrates why some Christians prefer to believe that I and those like me were never saved to begin with. Otherwise it could happen to any one of them, even you! Don't deny it - you know that if God wants to feed you a delusion, you're damn well going to eat it, because he's God.
"if you were truly saved, then you will come back to God at some point in your life. If you die while still not believing in God, I don't believe you were truly saved" Hey, you're the one who was the inspiration for the term "adhocatron", aren't you?
Anyway, you need to re-read Hebrews 6:4-6. It's too late for me. I've already denied the existence of God, and I'm pretty sure I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit once or twice. According to Hebrews, there's only one possible destination for my soul. At least they have kick-ass music in hell.
@wesermol - I have to say, if there were a god, I'd like it to be yours.
@Andrea_TheNerd - That seems kind of crappy, if God would really pull one out of his fold and send into a delusion.
It's not crappy. They weren't truly saved and it's in response to their choice of not wanting to love him.
Otherwise it could happen to any one of
them, even you! Don't deny it - you know that if God wants to feed you
a delusion, you're damn well going to eat it, because he's God.
That's not the way I believe it. I believe those people were never truly saved because as it says - "they received not the love of the truth."
Anyway, you need to re-read Hebrews 6:4-6.
I'm very familiar with those verses. That is referring to "common salvation" that Jude 3 speaks of, not true salvation. The greek word for common, koinos, is the same word that is used in other verses which say "profane", "unclean", or "defiled". So, there is something which God calls a profane or unclean or defiled salvation. God goes on to describe these people that had a common salvation as those that believed not and he destroyed. (v.5)
@musterion99 - "That's not the way I believe it." Now you're getting to the heart of the matter. Even when using the same book, people still can't decide what "real" Christianity is, other than to say "God knows". It would be great if people would just say "God knows" and leave it at that, but they can't.
"That is referring to 'common salvation' that Jude 3 speaks of, not true salvation." You really have to expand on this one for me, because I fail to see how words like "enlightened", "heavenly gift", "partakers of the Holy Spirit", "good word of God" and
"powers of the age to come" could be anything other than what it sounds like. Unless this is just one more example of people changing the definition of "real" Christianity to make themselves most comfortable.
This sort of thing is typical babble that goes on in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate on every christian message board in existeance. In my opinion it's semantics, and arguing about it is mostly bullshit. It's not about figuring out what the true nature of salvation/reality/god/etc is, it's about trying to prove that you're smarter than whoever you're arguing with. When it's about proving who is smarter, the "sola scriptura" doctrine gets abused to hell and back, and then you have people coming to these varied and unsympathetic conclusions that slowly transform anyone interested in theology into... a douchebag.
I was there once, but by the grace of Eris I was saved...
(Seriously though, you're talking about "preserverance of the saints" -- there are explicit prooftexts, but I don't believe that any single interpretation is the most valid.)
@anaraug - Three points for using the words "theology" and "douchebag" in the same sentance!
@Andrea_TheNerd - It would be great if people would just say "God knows" and leave it at that, but they can't.
I agree with you. I said about you that I don't really know for sure. I believe if you really were saved, that you will come back at some point. So, at this moment, I am not judging you because I don't know. And as you correctly said, only God knows.
As to the verses in Hebrews. It doesn't say that they were saved. People such as yourself that have belonged to a church, have been able to taste and experience the presence and power of the Holy Spirit that is present in the church. Jesus confirms this when he talks about people that have "prophesied in his name" and done many wonders in his name. (Matt. 7:22-23) And what did Jesus say about these people? He said - "I never knew you!" Notice that Jesus didn't say that at one time they were saved and that he knew them. No. He never knew them. I don't think Jesus could make it any clearer.
John also refers to these kind of people in I John 2:19, where he says - "They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."
@musterion99 - Ep! It's looking more and more bleak on the "assurance of salvation" side of things. I should have had you write this post.
@Andrea_TheNerd - Thanks, but according to what I am saying, I am not speaking against the assurance of salvation. There is God's all knowing perspective and our limited perspective. God knows those that are truly saved and they will persevere till the end. They cannot lose their salvation. If someone is saved and posseses eternal life, how could they lose that eternal life that they presently possess? We don't know for sure if someone is truly saved or not. We can see evidence by the fruits in their lives and have confidence that they are truly a Christian, but in cases such as yourself where you say that you were once a Christian but now don't believe, I can't judge. Only God can. You mentioned blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don't know if you've really done that. Jesus mentions this sin but doesn't go into a lot of detail about exactly what it is. Again, only God would know if someone has really done that. I believe if someone has really done that, they will have no desire whatsoever to believe in God. On the other hand, I've heard and known of people that have really fallen far away from God but ended up repenting and coming back to him.
As a Calvinist apostate, I had to wrestle with the same dilemmas, and finally resolved the Scotsman's Dilemma by choosing to reject the irrefutable hypothesis that led me down that path to begin with. Life's a lot easier when you don't posit self-contradictory premises like:
God is omnipotent and humans have free will.
God is good and omnipotent, yet evil exists.
God is omniscient, the Bible is literally true, and Adam hid from God.
The pious inattention to the basic logical underpinnings of most Christians' beliefs leads inevitably to the question of ''who's a christian, and how will I know?'' A related question is, ''with such considerable confusion out there, how do I know I won't fall away?'' I'm not going to argue within the chaotic framework and logical bookkeeping designed to make a consistent system out of a house divided from the start.
Instead I'll say that if you believe God is omni-anything, (and especially if you're a Calvinist) what are you worrying about your neighbor for? (S)he's either saved already, or won't ever be.
Ain't no assurance of salvation, because that's merely the peak of this mountain of logical rubble built on the quicksand of 'faith' and mutually contradictory premises. Ain't no salvation.
See, I've thought about the nature of being "called".
I think that, we're all called to something different. Whether that's no religion, structured religion, non-structured...whatever.
So some people really are called to christianity, some people are called to Buddhism, some people are called to Atheism...
It leads to this delimma between free will and the whole "meant to happen" business...*shrugs* then to the nature of truth when it comes to the deeper questions like this...and after that, we all arrive wherever we arrive.
The problem is, not everyone has the ability to accept this. To be open-minded, to allow others to observe other faiths and ways of believing (or not believing) and make up their own dang minds.
It's OK for people to be unable to understand other people.
Meh, but I'm not christian..so perhaps I can be accused of bias. Bleh.